"OK I get we should look out for the rest of the world first then our own??" - Shadow
---"I'd like to suggest that America fix America's problems before trying to "fix" everyone else's." - hallowed
Again you hear, but fail to listen.

"American Poverty is nothing of the scope or scale as it is there in Iraq. Period"
But it exists - according to your Census Buearau (1999 - most recent) 12.4 percent of the U.S. population, or 33.9 million people live below the poverty line, and you want to tell me that that is not a problem?

"We assimilated Iraq?? WE DON'T WANT IRAQ!! Wake up!!"
Of course you don't WANT Iraq, Iraq is just a worthless stretch of sand you'd rather nuke and turn into glass. However, without a dictator and a "liberated" government to allowed some "free" trade the US will no doubtedly move industrial operations there to take advantage of the low labour rate, and the "thankful" people. Oh yeah, won't YOUR gas prices be a little cheaper? I know ours wont be.

"Hellooo most Americans are FAT, not malnurished. We have just the opposite problem, most Americans eat to much and are fat slobs"
mal·nour·ished - Affected by improper nutrition or an insufficient diet. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=malnourished)
Malnourished is simpy a state of not eating the proper foods in the diet. The US is malnourished, you just take it the the opposite extreme. Period.

"No but at least they can work and do get payed. Its better than the alternative, no job and what that brings with it"
So it's sociologically feasable to have a country full of university graduates flipping burgers?

"But you say just the point, every AMerican has the ability to go to school. Most Iraq children did not. Especially the girls. What people choose to do with that offer is up to them and if they squander it, thats another story"
So you agree with me then? do you really think the illterate people of the middle east would refuse an education and choose to be unemployed? I will guarantee that that will not happen, only in America would you choose to remain ignorant.

"BUSH is not a dictator, he was elected, he can be replaced, dictators can not. Bush doesn't use poison gas on his citizens thats a slight difference also you forgot about. Stop hating one man and letting your hate spread to the rest of us Americans."
You started right but now have it backwards. Bush was elected by you, like Clinton before him, and Bush before him. They are the people YOU choose to lead you, to speak for you, to act on YOUR decisions. My dislike for Bush is stemmed from my dislike for your attitudes, actions, and mostly everything about the United States people.

"You mean the Un-united Nations?? ya now there is an organization that does a lot of good when it comes to stopping the killing in Iraq"
Who are you to make that decision? People need to WANT to change in order for change to happen, you can't FORCE people to change, they WILL resist it. it's human nature. The rest of the UN realizes that when Iraq wanted to change, they would ask for it. Then we would GLADLY help, but now you've invaded and we are just waiting for the backlash that we are going to have to clean up.

"YOU didn't let us do anything, you had nothing to do with it, that is the problem"
No, we LET you invade, we should have stopped you. You may have the most well equipped army in the world, but do you honestly think you could stand up to the rest of the world? what would you do then? Nuke us all?

"Stop hating America because its America"
I don't hate america, I think you're pompus, arrogant, brow-beating, under-acheiving, elitist asswads, but I don't hate you. You could change, you COULD be a nation that is abe to proudly display your flag in Europe, Asia or even Africa, but you'd have to want to change, and I simply don't see that happening

"Oh and stop driving so bad when you visit."
The only thing I can say is learn to drive, the rest of us have *G*.

"Its only arrogant because you don't like it"
ar·ro·gant
1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others
--or--
Making, or having the disposition to make, exorbitant claims of rank or estimation; giving one's self an undue degree of importance; assuming; haughty; -- applied to persons

No - it's arrogant because you because you refuse to veiw things from another perspective. You said "As for humanitarian level, give me a break, they want a better life, work for it..." - you refuse to see things as the rest of the world does. You also say " that also is what the U.S.A. is about, being able to say what you want when you want to" which is true, you can say ANYTHING you want to, but nobody will listen unless they feel the same way. you feel that what your beilieve is the beat and only way to live, you are quite frankly not THAT important, nobody is.

"There is no retirement plan and a happy old age for a criminal like you."
I don't agree or sympathize with them, but they didn't have it to begin with, they are not losing anything.

"they want to be left alone? Then leave us alone"
Remove your trade embargos, stop your capitalist imperialism, and leave everyone else alone to deal with thier own problems, and you might not be subject to attacks.

"no need to kill to get a point across"
Then remove your troops for foreign soil, your ships from international waters, and planes from other countries airspace, and take your own advice.

And for the other people reading this - Iraq is not a terrorist filled nation, they did not attack the US, they did not present a clear and present danger to the survival of the United States. The Al-Quida, the terrorists based out of Afganistan, did, but Iraq was invaded on behalf of the United States people because the Electoral president of the United States needed to have some sort of progress in the American jihad.

And to Shadow look at the responses you've recieved: two people agree with you, six do not, it looks like other people may have a different opinion, take it to heart.

Oh by the way its "Quran" I think you meant. The Qur'an ("Qor-Ann") is a Message from Allah to humanity. The muslim holy book. Koran is a english slang term I believe. Any Muslims out there tell us the correct term for your holy book?? Now I am curious. Or maybe its both and I stand corrected.

Simply from my brief encounter studying arabic, I am pretty sure that both are acceptable. The letter that is the first letter in the arabic word "Quran" or "Koran" does not have an english equivalent and is sometimes transcribed as K and sometimes as Q. Since arabic and english do not match up letter for letter, there are many ways to transcribe arab words into the english alphabet--some more sucessfully maintaining the original sounds than others.

the only difference between your leader, and the former Iraqi leader is the fact YOU were goaded into voting for him,

I think not, I do not see prisons in America for the political opponents of the Bush family. I will not have my good friend George slandered in this fashion.

Little_whip:
We are trying to respectfully have an intelligent conversation and exchange of views, if you have nothing constructive to add, politely keep it to yourself.

"ass-backwards, underdeveloped, politically corrupt, socially repressive and religiously bigoted country"
-----riiiight......

We are trying to respectfully have an intelligent conversation

Then why suggest that George W. Bush is the American equivalent of Saddam Hussein?!

Are you suggesting he's not?

Yes, as I outlined before George does not torture his political opponents and gas his people. Such a crude comparison.

- 'Some ass-backwards, underdeveloped, politically corrupt, socially repressive and religiously bigoted country?'
- ...'religious zealots who will never be satisfied with our foreign policy... ' ('religious zealots' in bold, mind you)

Little Whip, you are probably an even bigger example of an irritatingly arrogant, ignorant, sickeningly patriotic, ill-informed American than Shadow War. Basically you're the epitome of the American stereotype (which definitely exists, and it's not complimentary, that's for sure). Arrogant, brainwashed, redneck, dumb are words that come to mind... Sadly, it's a stereotype that is actually true for a LOT of Americans - it doesn't exist for nothing, you know... I'm not saying ALL Americans, but whatever percentage of your population is, it equates to a LOT of dumb people with big repercussions on the rest of the world. I mean, Bush did get into power, after all, and look what that's done. You know, he's been touted as the worst American president EVER (dumbest, indisputably)!!! I'm sure an ex-president, filthy-rich daddy, and a bit of rigged vote counting certainly didn't go astray for him. If you ask me, it is obvious the man doesn't have two brain cells to rub together (haven't you guys heard his speeches and watched him talk?!). and he certainly didn't get into office on the basis of his huge intellect ! He's also a liar (weapons of mass destruction, yeah right) and just as bad as Saddam in that he was willing to invade a country knowing so many innocent people would die and despite not having UN approval (why be on the UN anyway if you ignore their rulings?). You should watch Fahrenheit 9/11 when it comes out - or go to www.michaelmoore.com and check out the shorts and then ask yourself if George W. Bush is a smart man or not.

I just wish people could see things for what they are. Sure, S11 was an awful atrocity, and killing is not right whatever the reasons or motivations. But that was orchestrated by Al-Qaeda - a primarily Afghani organisation, and America already attacked them (got their own back, as you would like to say) back in 2001-02. Iraq is a different story. Pre-emptive strike on another country, based on presumption only (and lies - they were advised there were no weapons of mass destruction there to be found), is not right. Saddam Hussein is obviously not a nice person (although Bush' labelling him an evil man' or 'tyrant' is ridiculous and nauseating - same could be said about him, really) but the US should not have ignored UN orders, and certainly shouldn't have gone in under the pretext of Iraq harbouring 'weapons of mass destruction', which as we all know, were never found ! I f you ask me, the US itself is the biggest weapon of mass destruction around -- it is the only one to have actually used a nuclear weapon on another country anyway, and it has weasled its ways into so many countries and fought so many wars and left so much devastation and poverty in its wake.... Wake up!!! Why on earth do they think every country needs them or that their societal and political models are the best way for every nation anyway? Give me a break. Every single person I know who has lived in the US for a decent period of time (and not as a tourist) abhors the place and would never want to live there again. It's a police state with absolutely no regard for human privacy; people's tendencies to sue at the drop of a hat are just ridiculous and laughable but altogether frightening; people have no sense of identity and are obsessed about losing their jobs; family values have gone out the window, and the number one allurement is money money money. People don't take care of their bodies --- I mean, people are dying of starvation in this world, and most Americans are happily obese, or dieting-obsessed, madly trying to lose their flab.(At which point, I ask again, do you REALLY think a poor, starving person is better off in America than Iraq, Shadow War? I think not - at least in Iraq they still have self-respect.) The perception of Americans by outsiders, is that they're a bunch of rednecks, arrogant, ignorant, closed-minded racists who think Americans (white ones at that) are the best example of the human species anywhere in the world. For example, French people, especially, have poor opinions of the stereotypical American, because these Americans go to Paris and want everything done the American way. Give me a break ! I could go on and on and on.......... Anyone watched Jerry Springer lately? lol !

Just one other thought -- if Americans are so just and so wonderful and the good guys, why then did pictures of American troops torturing Iraqi prisoners get plastered throughout the media approximately one month ago? Looks like terrorists are everywhere, and looks like being an American doesn't change much on a base level, does it? Fortunately, however, we can understand that those individuals do not represent all Americans, but rather illustrate the depraved nature of human beings in general. I have never said I hate Americans, cos I don't, I just hate the attitudes of anyone who refuses to acknowledge that we're all human and therefore do not understand the meaning of the word COMPASSION.

It's got nothing to do with Americans, it's just so happens that Americans seem to be some of the most arrogant, ignorant people around.

Sir Peter Maxwell:
Not directly no, he doesn't, he doesn't torture his political opponents, he instigates wars, and then has his soldiers (who we all love very much) take pictures abusing them so that everyone knows not to cross his path, i know i know, he didn't order it, now did he? but what are he and Rumsfeld doing about it?

He would never gas people... thats soo www.15_yearsago.com. He allows scientists develop uranium lined bullets instead, because everone knows that dying from radiation poisoning is much more enjoyable than from sarin. Oh, let not forget to leave them laying around the testing grounds so the uranim has a chance to pollute the local water system.

Just because it's not malicious, doesn't mean it's any different, the outcome is the same, and the ends are not differed by the means.

Coocoo_Bean:
*claps* nicely put

Just as i'm reading through your rant, do I notice you mention - "Just one other thought -- if Americans are so just and so wonderful "and the good guys, why then did pictures of American troops torturing Iraqi prisoners get plastered throughout the media approximately one month ago?" - it was shadow himself who said "You do not scare me, you do not cause me to worry, you do not rule my thoughts." Now don't you think that Iraqi's across the country are scared, or worrying, or having thier thoughts ruled but those images? Does that make the soldiers who took those pictures terrorists? Of couse not, they are simply misguided souls. Why? Because thier people back home feel that they are the model society that everyone should base themselves off, and because the victims were prisoners of an "evil empire" that would make them less human somehow, and wouldn't cause fear in the hearts of the rest of the "terrorist regime" (read Iraq).

hmmmm. I haven't looked in on this thread in a while. Amazing how it has turned into an all-out America bashing session.

But that's ok. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion. At least in America they do anyway.

As an American, I respect everyone's right to say exactly what they feel, even if it is a bunch of hate-filled rhetoric.

Personally, I don't care if other governments choose to murder their citizens. It's their country, they can do what they want.

I do care, however when terrorists murder members of my family when they are simply going to work and doing their jobs.

Have they killed your family mate?

I had several family members who died on 9/11/01. Do I feel the attack on Iraq was justified? Yes. Our president announced publicly that any country that aided terrorist organizations bent on attacking the US that they will either stop, or pay the consequences. Iraq was one of those countries. They openly and flagrantly aided the terrorists. They provided them safe haven. They provided them with a place to train their killers. They aided them in any way they could. Anyone who argues that they didn't is being purposely ignorant. I worked in military intelligence in the Middle East. I know they did.

The former governing body of Iraq was responsible for the deaths of more muslims than all of the other bodies, governments, wars, and groups combined. It was an evil regime that was given many chances to fall into line by the UN. They refused to go along with what the governments of the "American bashing" people represented in this thread demanded that they do. How many more innocent Iraqis needed to die before your countries decided it was enough to take action?

Yes, we acted out of self-interest. All countries do. Yours in no exception. By attacking and easily defeating the largest army in the Middle East (the one all other Middle Eastern countries feared) the US sent a very effective message to the other countries who were aiding the terrorists. "If you help the terrosrists against the US, this could happen to you."

Sir Peter Maxwell: Not directly no, he doesn't, he doesn't torture his political opponents, he instigates wars

War is good, the British Empire was forged on warfare, whether conquering India or slaying the Zulus.

let not forget to leave them laying around the testing grounds so the uranim has a chance to pollute the local water system.

Since when was pollution a sin? Let us not forget that the Victorians were serial polluters and they ran the greatest empire the world has ever known!


I think you should feel less concern for criminal dictatorships and terrorists and more concern for the innocent victims of terrorists, the west is the greatest victim of terror. This is why terrorists marvel in the death of innocent Americans and Brits, they are death merchants. Long live freedom and the British Empire!

pollution IS a sin. Ask Jesus.

pollution IS a sin. Ask Jesus.

Yes, I'll just get my phonebook and give Jesus a call, I hope he's in. Pollution is not a sin, it is consented to in the Bible. I am a devout English protestant, I know all about religion dear boy.

Knowing and practising are two different things --- doesn't religion preach humility?