This is my personal view and comments on the issues and events that I feel a need to talk about or express my view. You don't have to agree, but lets carry on a adult, discussion and maybe you will see it the right way, mine. ;)
The death of freedom to fly the American Flag..
Published on June 9, 2004 By ShadowWar In Politics
This is the story of Richard Oulton, an American, a veteran, and a victim of the Ameircan Communist..the Leftys.

Richard Oulton put up a flag pole in his yard, and flew the American Flag and a purple heart flag. For those of you armchair libs, thats a medal you get for being wounded in time of war. Mr. Oulton was awared that medal while he was a member of the "Walking Dead Marines", the 1st BN, 9th Marine Regiment in Vietnam. His unit started out with 800 marines and lost 605 during the war. This unit suffered the highest casulty rate of any unit in the war. He has every right to be proud, and fly those flags, he earned it with his own blood.

In Richmond, Va., Richard Oulton's homeowner's association demanded his flagpole come down. But he said no way.

"To take it down now would be a total dishonor and an insult to everyone that has ever stood for the flag. If that flag comes down now, the next place it will fly will be over my coffin," Oulton said.

He's been raising the flag ever since he was a medic in Vietnam and flew the stars and stripes over his bunker. "I'm just trying to express my patriotism, my love for my country," he said.

Oulton is an attorney. When he moved into the Florida community he says he checked to see if there were any restrictions on flying the flag.

"There was no reference to flags or flagpoles anyplace," Oulton said.

So he put up a big flagpole next to the big home he built, on three lots. His neighbors say they don't object.

They say it's nice, it matches the house, and say it's an asset to the community.
(DID you get that, the neighbors had NO PROBLEM with the pole or the Flags, in fact they liked it!!))

Objection to Flagpole

But the homeowner's association board said the flagpole's too big.

"We had no idea someone would erect a flagpole that large when the guidelines were written," said Birdie Knuckols, former member of the association board.

Since the association guidelines did not mention flagpoles — the board instead ruled it was an unapproved structure. Later they adopted rules allowing flagpoles — but only small ones, no larger than 6 feet — and required them to be attached to the house.

"It's not an issue of patriotism. All we are asking Mr. Oulton to do is show his patriotism within the guidelines that everyone else in the community is willing to live by," Knuckols said.

Planned communities can set these rules because they're private, and many homeowners love the rules because they like the way the regulations make their communities look nice and uniform. They say this raises property values.

But sometimes the people on the boards of the homeowners' associations are very controlling. And the law is on their side. So, in 1999 the board took its complaint about Oulton's flagpole to court, and won. While he appealed, he was allowed to keep the flagpole up.

Oulton said, "I don't understand what the problem is. It's a property right that I have to fly this flag. It's a free speech right that I have to fly this flag."

He dedicated the flagpole to the Marine unit he served with in Vietnam, a unit dubbed the walking dead because three-quarters of its members were killed.

"I had a lot of guys die in my arms and once I put that plaque out there and said this flag will always fly because I owe it to my boys, my walking dead Marines … I owe it to my boys," Oulton said.

But it won't fly anymore. He took it down in March. All that remains is a hole in the ground, a broken plaque and mementos left by visiting veterans.

Oulton lost his case in local court, and then higher courts rejected his appeals. The presiding judge told Oulton, "You agreed not to erect a structure without prior approval. That's it. No more, no less. You violated that agreement." After a four-year battle, Oulton has lost his flag, and $150,000 to the association in legal fees.

Is this not a perfect example of the way in which the freaks, and deviants in this country take away our freedoms one at a time? Is this not a crime! Think about it, the neighbors LIKED the pole and flags, but some idiot with to much time on his hands and to little brain decided that he didn't like it, can this truely have been an American who felt that way? Does this not make your blood boil that they would go so far as to force him to remove them?? I can tell you where I would have told them to put the flag pole. Then they would have had to come take it down by force.

Another small part of American Freedom and the right to express your love of this Country died that day.
The like shows you pictures of this case and a little more in-depth info. I mistakingly said the ACLU was involved inthis case, they were not to my knowledge (now I know this) but this is just the type of thing thye would do. But this was just done by local idiots and leftys.. They must have had troubled childhoods and blame the USA for all the welfare checks they are forced to get.
Comments (Page 3)
9 Pages1 2 3 4 5  Last
on Jun 10, 2004
listening to Shadow furiously ranting on all those commie indians messing up our decent American backyards.


Me furiously ranting???? I don't think so..lol

Its a non-issue because you want it that way? Who are you to decide this is an issue not worth getting furious over??
on Jun 10, 2004
At the moment in England the peasants have been buying flags in their millions due to the Euro 2004 championships. Ironically the flags are made in China, but the peasants still want them. They are everywhere, on houses, on cars, on shops and on street corners. I don't think the issue is about whether its wrong to fly your nation's flag, but where you do it. Many of the peasants have been fined for flags that are eyesores or obstruct car windows etc.
on Jun 10, 2004
I understand the concept of Associations well enough and even why some people choose to live in these types of communities. But I think this is carrying the idea to an absurd extreme. There's a big difference between parking a camper in your drive for three months at a time, not mowing your lawn regularly, and erecting a flag pole.


The point is, it is not up to you to decide, nor is it up to a judge. Some people do not like to have to see a big-ass flag over their neighborhood all the time. Sure, they are all un-American commie traitors, but unfortunately this is a free democracy in which their opinion is just as valid as yours. So in these cases, a judge has no choice but to forbid any structure that was placed without permission, and personally I feel he is completely right to ignore a law that is made after the fact.
on Jun 10, 2004
What I find interesting here is that no one has mentioned the abominable practice that these "homeowners associations" employ to get their way.
No individual can fight the one thing these associations use to enforce the rules they make up. They use the courts as a tool to separate the person
from his property. I'm a witness to a deceitful action in Florida that TOOK a near blind, arthritic, hobbled old man to the cleaners for the sum of $200,000.
He lost his house and property because all the lawyers could do was delay the legal "lein" leveled at him by the associations lawyers. Yes and who handled the sale of his property? Those same lawyers. Who started it? Those same lawyers. Who profited? Same lawyers. The complaint against him? His landscaper
planted two trees is his back yard that were not compliant with the associations "rules" on type of shrubbery allowed. Is this insane? Yes.
Once again I'll say it.....in uppercase so you will all hear it. STAY OUT OF FLORIDA IF YOU WISH TO RETIRE. THE CROOKS HERE GET FAT ON OLDER
AMERICANS RETIREMENT SAVINGS AND THEY ARE ALWAYS LOOKING TO TARGET ANOTHER MARK. AND THOSE ARE JUST THE LEGAL CROOKS. THERE ARE TEN TIMES THAT MANY ACTIVE SCAMMERS WORKING THE PHONES HERE DAILY. AND YES, THEY -DO- THINK YOU ARE SPECIAL. YOU'VE GOT MONEY AND THEY WANT IT.

on Jun 10, 2004

Go measure 25 foot sometime. That's how big this guy's flag pole was. Now imagine how big those flags were (two of them).

The flag pole in my front yard is that tall.  That picture that they show is at a strange camera angle, so it makes the pole look bigger than it is (unless it is actually taller than 25').  If you have a typical 2 story house, then your house is 20 feet or more off the ground.  Ours is about 25 feet, so for the flag pole  which is about 75 ft in front of the house to look normal size from the road, the flag pole is 25 ft tall.  It's also a nautical flag pole, so it flies 3 flags- none of which (including the biggest, which is the American Flag) are not manageable by myself. 

A 25 foot flag poles biggest flag would be a 6'x4' flag. Most aluminum flag poles (the ones that stand in the ground) start at 20' in height.   Most of the "little" poles that you see in the ground are 15'..... but that is neither here nor there and is more fact crap than anything .

But, I also don't live in an association because I want to have the right to have a flag pole that is as tall as my house- and that is really the point of this.  If you want the freedom to do what you want with your yard, fence, deck, whatever, then don't live in a community.   Don't move into a community then complain because there are rules, just as you shouldn't move next to an airport and complain about the noise. 

on Jun 10, 2004

Shadowar: Do you live in a neighborhood association? I do.  In fact, I've lived in two. And I've seen a lot of association charters which all come back to the point: NO BUILDING OF UNAUTHORIZED STRUCTURES.

They don't have to explicitly say flag poles any more than one has to list all the ways one may be murdered. "Ah there's no law saying I can't kill someone with a banana!". 

It's not the flag, it's the flagpole.

And associations exist partly to protect the property value of houses. Eye sores, including giant flag poles, are both aesthetically displeasing and lower the property value.  His rights end where his neigbhors' begin.

on Jun 10, 2004

Draginol's right.  I live in a neighborhood with an association, and like him, I'm glad I do, because I've seen some pretty trashy neighborhoods.  25 feet for a flag pole is really big.  REALLY BIG.  The standard flagpole, for houses, is 12-14 ft tall.  Something 25 ft tall can be seen from the interstate near my house.


Cheers

on Jun 10, 2004

One other point about the concept of freedom of association (something protected by the constitution).

If a group of people want to get together and have a neighborhood in which every tree is a pine tree they have the right to do that. Do you know why? Because it's the United States and people have that freedom. They can then make a covenant declaring that no one will plant any trees other than pine trees.

If someone then moves in and plants a maple tree he's breaking that covenant. It doesn't matter if you think their rules are stupid or not. It doesn't matter if the covenant doesn't say "you may not plant maple trees".  People have a right to associate with other like minded people. They don't require anyone's acceptance or agreement to exist because this is America.

I live in an association because me and like minded people didn't want to live in a neighborhood with fences, above ground pools, motorhomes on the street, poorly cared for yards, tool sheds in the backyard, etc.  You may think that such places are stepford-like or idiotic or drone-like. That's nice. You don't have to live here. My wife and family and friends like it though and thank god I live in a country where we can associate with others who feel the same way -- hence neighborhood association.

on Jun 10, 2004
I think it was reasonable for Mr. Oulton to assume that a flagpole was not a "Structure". Obviously I haven't read the 250 pages of charter, but the common conception of a structure as I understand it is that it is a BUILDING of some kind; a shed, a hutch, an outhouse, a doghouse, a gazebo, a lean-to, a carport, a garage, etc.; something with SIDES and a ROOF. I don't believe that a flagpole qualifies.
on Jun 10, 2004

This outraged and upset many people, including members of the legislature who responded by unanimously voting in The Wyndham Flag Bill. This statute basically provides that no homeowners association can prohibit a homeowner from flying a flag unless they disclose it at the time of sale. Despite the fact that the new law was enacted specifically for the Wyndham flag case and was called the Wyndham Flag Law, the judge ruled that the law did not apply to the Oultons’ case. He ignored the law."


Because no-one was telling him he couldn't fly the flag!


I didn't miss the point; I think that you're trying to make this into something it isn't. 

on Jun 10, 2004
Let's see if I can get this link right...
here's an alternate view of the flag; contrast to Brad's picture above, this is THE SAME flag.
http://www.ccfj.net/Flyoldgloryoultonpic.jpg
on Jun 10, 2004
Dammit. Try again:


on Jun 10, 2004
nice pic. All places like that have rules to live by. You can't paint anything orange etc... but this pic makes it clear there's no problem. The committee must hate Americans or something. But wtf would someone put up a flag above their bunker? That to me is kind of totally stupid. I wonder how many GI's died because they gave away their position like that.
on Jun 10, 2004
Actually, Dharmagrl, the association WAS telling him he could not fly the flag. They declared the flag itself to be a "Visual Nuisance."
See: http://kdr.e-xl.com/en/22999/american-flag-alliance/
and: http://www.inman.com/inf/3cim/story.asp?ID=33917

And this quote from the (apparently now-defunct) http://www.americanflagtrial.com/bla.html

The Association representative was reported by the press as stating that the Memorial Day 1999 American Flag and Purple Heart Flag atop the Oulton's poles constituted a "Visual Nuisance." They continued by saying, they never have and never will allow the American Flag to fly atop a pole as it is an "Eyesore" and thus a "Visual Nuisance."

The Association representative that was interviewed was further reported in the Richmond press as bragging, ..."We banned a purple Barney from one front yard as an 'Eyesore' thus a 'Visual Nuisance' so why treat this Purple Heart and American Flag on Memorial Day any differently? The Purple Heart flag is the same as the purple Barney....both are visual nuisances."

After telling the press that flags and poles are clearly banned by the rules, the Association now admit that the words, "Flag" or "Flag Pole" were nowhere in the over 150 pages of detailed restrictions Oulton was given. The new answer is, the Association makes the rules and the new rule is: No American flags atop flag poles.
on Jun 10, 2004
We should think of places like this differently.

Instead of thinking of them as feudal lords and ladies who can't live without imposing their will on their neighbors, think of them as "sensitive" folks who can't get survive out in the "wilderness" of society and are kept in closed groups for their own safety. Zoos for the anal-retentive. The sad part is when these folks move to rural areas and try to impose their ignorance on reasonable people.

I like Brad, but it is like he doesn't even hear how snotty it sounds when he complains about " above ground pools, motorhomes on the street, poorly cared for yards" . He sounds like Mrs. Drysdale on the "Beverly Hillbillies" or Mr. Howell on "Gilligan's Island" or Mrs. Oleson on "Little House on the Prairie". You'd have to dig deep to find much popular sympathy for such attitudes.

So, in the end, I don't think "right" is all that universally apparent in this case. People don't sympathize with such folks, and they are always the buffoon or villain when dealt with fictionally. Let them have their neighborhoods, they couldn't handle mine.
9 Pages1 2 3 4 5  Last