This is my personal view and comments on the issues and events that I feel a need to talk about or express my view. You don't have to agree, but lets carry on a adult, discussion and maybe you will see it the right way, mine. ;)
Mark one up for the right to free speech.
Published on June 15, 2004 By ShadowWar In Politics
I know its hard to fathom but the Supreme Court of the US finally made a decision FOR the right to free speech and not against it.


By Susan Jones
CNSNews.com Morning Editor
June 14, 2004

(2nd Add: Includes comments by the Catholic League and Focus on the Family.)

(CNSNews.com) - It is okay for students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools. On Monday, the U.S. Supreme Court Monday dismissed the case brought by atheist Michael Newdow.

The justices decided that Newdow lacked the legal standing to challenge the constitutionality of the Pledge, apparently since he does not have custody of his daughter.

Newdow sued the Elk Grove (Calif.) Unified School District on behalf of his daughter, saying she should not be forced to invoke God's name while reciting the Pledge at school.

Two years ago, a federal appeals court in San Francisco agreed with Newdow that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was an unconstitutional "endorsement of religion" because of the phrase "one nation under God."

Writing for the three-judge panel, Judge Alfred T. Goodwin said, "A profession that we are a nation 'under God' is identical, for Establishment Clause purposes, to a profession that we are a nation 'under Jesus,' a nation 'under Vishnu,' a nation 'under Zeus,' or a nation 'under no god,' because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion."

By dismissing the appeal on a technicality, the U.S. Supreme Court on Monday disappointed some Americans who hoped for a definitive ruling.

"The Supreme Court's decision to reverse the 9th Circuit and uphold our national Pledge of Allegiance complete with the phrase 'one Nation under God' is a victory for common sense," said the Center for Individual Freedom. "Nevertheless, the Court's decision to turn back the challenge to the Pledge on technical grounds is disappointing given numerous justices' consistent approval of references to our nation's shared religious heritage and history."

The Center for Individual Freedom filed a brief with the Supreme Court arguing that the words 'one Nation under God' do not violate the Establishment Clause. The group argued that the Founding Fathers did not intend for the First Amendment to discriminate against religion.

"It was designed to ensure citizens could celebrate and practice their religion freely," the group said in a press release. "The Court should have taken this opportunity to reiterate what we all know to be true -- a public mention of the word 'God' does not violate the Constitution."

The Center for Individual Freedom calls it "appropriate and symbolic" that the Supreme Court dismissed the case on Flag Day, adding, "We just wish that the Court would have been more emphatic in its pronouncement."

The American Center for Law and Justice said the Supreme Court was right to dismiss Newdow's lawsuit.

"While the court did not address the merits of the case, it is clear that the Pledge of Allegiance and the words 'under God' can continue to be recited by students across America," said Jay Sekulow, chief counsel of the ACLJ, which also filed a friend-of-the-court brief in the case.

"By dismissing this case and removing the appeals court decision, the Supreme Court has removed a dark cloud that has been hanging over one of the nation's most important and cherished traditions -- the ability of students across the nation to acknowledge the fact that our freedoms in this country come from God, not government."

Sekulow said it doesn't matter that the Supreme Court did not address the merits of the case: "The fact is the legally flawed decision of the appeals court is removed and students across America can begin the new school year in the fall by reciting the Pledge of Allegiance including the phrase 'under God.'

"The high court had several ways it could have disposed of this troubling decision and we're delighted that the suit has been dismissed and the Pledge remains intact."

"America's founders recognized that our rights, as the Declaration of Independence states, are 'endowed by the Creator.' In fact, they staked their 'lives, [their] fortunes and their sacred honor' on that truth," said John H. Whitehead, president of the Rutherford Institute.

"We had hoped that the Court would set the record straight once and for all by confirming the unequivocal affirmation of thirteen Supreme Court Justices across four decades that state-led recitation of 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance does not violate the Establishment Clause," he said.

"While we are pleased that this time-honored tradition can continue, The Rutherford Institute remains committed to standing in defense of the constitutionality of this practice should any future challenges arise," Whitehead said.

"It is too bad that the substantive issue of whether recitations of the Pledge in school are legal wasn't addressed. It is regrettable only because there is a concerted effort in this country, led by organizations that are openly hostile to religion, to eliminate all public vestiges of our religious heritage," said Catholic League President William Donohue.

"This movement, which is at root totalitarian, seeks to impose a radical secular agenda on all Americans. It must be stopped dead in its tracks if religious liberty is to survive," Donohue. "This is not a good day for the radical secularists. Which is why it is such a good day for everyone else."

"Yet again, a ruling of the 9th Circuit - the most overturned circuit court in the nation - has been voided," said Focus on the Family Chairman Dr. James C. Dobson.

"However, the Supreme Court does not emerge from this case the defender of America's moral and Christian heritage - in fact, it showed a lack of principle that is truly appalling," said Dobson.

"Instead of settling this question once and for all, the Court has left the nation to wonder if God's name will be found unconstitutional if another challenge is brought in a procedurally correct fashion," he said.

"By refusing to rule on the substance of the case, the Supreme Court has left the door open for additional challenges to our nation's godly foundation - one which is reflected on our currency, in our government buildings - including the Supreme Court's own chamber - and in the oaths we take," Dobson added.

Comments (Page 1)
2 Pages1 2 
on Jun 15, 2004
Frankly, the whole idea of The Sepration of Church and State, is a big joke. Although the Constitution, the foundation of American Government and the Constitutional Republic in which we live(that's right, it's not a democracy), does not mention God directly, it states in "The Non-Establishment Clause" (Amendment 1) that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an Establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

However, this sentence has been construed to mean something like this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting the existence of the state church. The Judicial Branch, however, can strike down
'non-constitutional' laws which allow men to express themselves religiously. The Judicial branch therefore can completly remove God from the public sphere."

Originally this sentence meant that the Government of the United States will not dictate to people what they must believe concerning God. Furthermore, it meant that the government will not establish a state church. eg. England

After the Biblical Flood (Genesis 6-9), God comanded Noah to establish Government to keep the people under control. This means that God is the origin of Civil Government. Furthermore, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." (Romans 13:1) This passage of scripture shows that all rulers and people in authority are put there by the will of God, whether the ruler be good or bad.

Noah Webster said, "The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws." God is always present in the affairs of Government whether people wish to believe it or not.

According to the English Jurist Willian Blackstone, in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, declared that there are two types of foundations for laws: Revealed Law, given by God in his holy scripture; and the Natural Law, discernible by all men by the virtue of their hearts. However, the latter of the two presents a problem. Society, in general is degenerating. What happens when common sense is no longer common? What if common sense is no longer sensible?

That is the age we are living in today. People no longer wish to acknowledge God and therefore create laws which harm people by not allowing them to express themselves religiously.

Conclusions: The Idea of Chruch and State originally meant that Government and Religion were Institutionally seperate. The Idea of Church and State is constitutional, though not in the way it's applied today. The founding fathers believed in freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. In fact, the founding fathers believed religion was essential to good government. Consider these quotes:

"It is impossible to rightly govern... without God and the Bible." -George Washington
"Religion... is the basis and foundation of Government."- James Madison
"Religion and virtue are the only foundations... of republicanism and of all free government."-John Adams
"Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens."-Daniel Webster
on Jun 15, 2004
Some better quotes to consider:

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson

John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

Thomas Paine - From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

Thomas Paine - From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”

I'll do my best to keep mysticism from playing a role in government, whether by my vote or my actions as a government agent. Trust not the future of our country on the wishings and alleged revelation (prayer) of men who evade reality.

VES
on Jun 15, 2004
John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

Yes, the Founding fathers believed that Religion is a matter of the heart, and therefore cannot be forced upon an individual.
But, you cannot deny that the heritage of the United States has Judeo-Christian beliefs.

You may not believe The Bible, you may not believe in God or Christ... But remember: The people of Noah's day didn't believe the earth would flood either.
on Jun 15, 2004
Evan,

That those are some of the best responses I have seen. Thank you I enjoyed them.
on Jun 15, 2004
I'm glad the Supreme Court rejected the case. After all, there's so many blatant religious symbols in the US, especially in our money, that it's silly to focus on only the ones that say "God" on them or are Christian in nature.
on Jun 15, 2004
But, you cannot deny that the heritage of the United States has Judeo-Christian beliefs.


No, you are right, I can't deny our government has been tainted by religion. That in and of itself says nothing.

You may not believe The Bible, you may not believe in God or Christ... But remember: The people of Noah's day didn't believe the earth would flood either.


There's no "may to it, I do not believe at all in the bible, including the logistical impossibility of putting 2 of every species of animal on the earth in a big boat. You'll have to come up with some more compelling evidence than that. Oh wait, you can't use evidence to establish "faith". Evidence and reason are contradictory to the concept of faith.

I think the quotes I provided pretty much tear down the concept that the "founding fathers" were lockstep in the belief that our government was or even should be founded on christianity. Some may have thought that, others did not.

VES
on Jun 15, 2004
No matter what we believe, it's a statement of faith... Evolution or creation? I personally believe there is no evidence to support evolution... you may think otherwise though. No, they wern't lockstep of course. But an overwhelming glut of the quotes did come from Thomas Jefferson who was what many would call a "Modernist" or one who does not believe the virgin birth, the divinity of Christ, the miracles of the bible, basically. He even took a bible and excised passages he believed didn't belong and, in effect, made his own bible.

How does religion taint government? I coudl understand that some religions (violent ones) could taint it. But a religion, in fact the true religion Christianity, could taint government or in some other way besmirch it.

By the way, I have found evidence that convinces me that the flood did happen. But, people may think what they want. It all come down to faith. Agnoticism and Atheism are both religions, by the way. But I'd label you as more of a Secular Humanist.

What is morality? Who, or what dictates morality to you? I wonder
on Jun 16, 2004
No matter what we believe, it's a statement of faith... Evolution or creation? I personally believe there is no evidence to support evolution...


Not accurate. One can base one's beliefs on facts and reality. Or, one can simply accept what is told to him/her. I'm not convinced by the evidence that evolution is necessarily 100% correct, however it is far more plausible explanation and evidence than the existence of a super being of which there is NO proof. Fortunately, the burden is not on my to proof the a god doesn't exist since there is no evidence to say that he does. I don't have to prove a negative, you have to prove a positive. Aside from that, I leave those questions of how this universe or world came about to those who have that as a burning question.

How does religion taint government? I coudl understand that some religions (violent ones) could taint it.


Take a look at the violence caused by the followers of your religion in the name of your religion throughout history and you will understand what I mean by tainted. Aside from that, issues of morality based on christianity that have no basis in reality which adversely affects individual rights is another way it has tainted our government and country.

Agnoticism and Atheism are both religions, by the way


Not hardly, but whatever floats your boat. Agnosticism is a statement that one cannot prove or disprove the existence of a deity. Atheism is the rejection of a deity. Neither of them offer any dogma or guidance for life or morality beyond those simple statements and as such are not religions.

But I'd label you as more of a Secular Humanist.


Label away if that helps you understand. Rational egoist or objectivist are more suitable terms if you care for accuracy.

What is morality? Who, or what dictates morality to you? I wonder


Reality, rationality, and the ultimate value of life help me establish morality. There are some stark similarities between certain aspects of objectivist morality and christain morality, though for vastly different reasons. If you want more of an explanation than that I would point you in the direction of Ayn Rand and her philosophy. And yes, I realize that the mere mentioning of her name conjures up terms like, extreme, ruthless, dispassionate, uncaring, and a whole host of other unpleasantries from folks who don't understand it.

VES



on Jun 16, 2004
My apologies for the many spelling and grammatical errors contained in the first paragraph of my post above. If any of that needs clarification, please let me know.

VES
on Jun 16, 2004
But if there is no Moral absolute... How is it established? "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes" What if someone said, "I believe it's okay to kill someone?" If it's based on their morals is it right? How can man be a heroic being? Look at newpaper headlines! They speak of war, incurable disease, ecological destruction! Man cannot save himself. Man cannot be his own god.
on Jun 16, 2004
But if there is no Moral absolute...


As I said, if you want to learn that there is, read some Ayn Rand. If you don't want to learn that, don't. I will not be your teacher, and I won't try to indoctrinate you into my beliefs, as I'm sure you would like to do to me. If you seek knowledge, the burden is on you.

What if someone said, "I believe it's okay to kill someone?"


That is called whim. Whim is contradictory to life. That said, is it always wrong to kill someone? Context is everything.

However, the initiation of force on another individual is expressly forbidden and immoral in objectivism.

How can man be a heroic being? Look at newpaper headlines! They speak of war, incurable disease, ecological destruction! Man cannot save himself. Man cannot be his own god.


You can see what you like when you read the papers. But remember, most of the atrocities you are reading about when you read the paper are atrocities committed by folks of faith. And man is not meant to be a god.

I will not help you any more with this. If you want to read Rand fine, if you don't, that's fine too. If you want to skim a few web pages and read the cliff notes, spare yourself the trouble, you aren't truly interested in a different point of view. It represents no value to me to try to discuss this with someone who is opposed to learning from the out set.

If you want to ask questions or read more in depth information, I'll point you to another forum with people far more knowledgeable (and patient) than myself.

http://forum.objectivismonline.net/

You needn't be an objectivist to join, and the only thing asked is that you ask questions honestly and with intellectual integrity. If you seek to be inflammatory or troll-like, you visit there will be short lived.

VES
on Jun 16, 2004
Hey RC,
Actually for your scientific mind. Scientist have shown that the chances of a planatary body having all the factors needed to supprt life are rather slim. When figured its like, less than 1 chance in 10~282(million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles. (Dr. Hugh Ross, PhD. Astrophyisist)


Link

And here is a large list of sites for the scientifically challenged. I was an atheist scientificly minded person. Now I am a scientifically minded Christian. Rather amazing thinking of how little I thought of religion and Christianity in general.




Hope you enjoy them. Let me know what you think. Honest opinion.
on Jun 16, 2004
Thanks for that evidence i was trying to remember those facts. But, needless to say i couldn't remember them. Could you do those links again? They didn't show up
on Jun 16, 2004
would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles. (Dr. Hugh Ross, PhD. Astrophyisist)


Well, those odds are certainly better than the odds of it happening with divine miracles. Do you have the odds on that?

VES
on Jun 16, 2004
It's ridiculous to pretend that the odds are in favor of either way. Humans have no comprehension of what's before the beginning and what's after the end. Whatever way the universe happened, is beyond current human understanding, but one thing can be assumed... The beginning can't be pinned down by science.
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